I think real flesh and blood is exactly the point as you require a "physical" blood quotation from Jesus in your challenge yet now you acknowledge that the blood of Jesus is also "Spiritual in nature."

Meaning that you are attempting in you challenge to pigeonhole the blood of Jesus into a strictly physical meaning that the Bible does not teach.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The shed blood of Jesus covers both the physical on the earth and the Spiritual heavenly realms, something you seem to be omitting in your presentation.

Also as I quoted Matthew 1:21 for context into the purpose of Jesus and his visit to mankind. In Matthew 1:20 the context is that "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him (Joseph)" it is the angel of the lord that stated the name and purpose of Jesus coming to mankind. Matthew 1:20 "and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save his people from their sins." I mention the Angel of the Lord as a reference that is not of human origin i.e. John the Baptist just in case you don't believe people you might hear the Angel of the Lord.

Matthew 26:27 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is *shed for many for the *remission of sins.

Here Mat 26:27 two of your three contest words "shed" and "remission" are used the word "physical" is not used (though certainly implied in the word "shed") because as pointed out the blood of Jesus is not limited to the physical but is both physical and Spiritual covering both the physical and the Spiritual realms as in Colossians 1:20.

Your contest comes across as less than genuine if you ask for an exclusive physical blood quote knowing that is not what the Bible teaches and then switching it to spiritual blood or whatever else is convenient for the moment.

The "gospel of Philipe" is not a part of your original challenge "From the four gospels of the 1611 King James Bible" so that is irrelevant.

I hope your Nobel effort to identify God is in earnest and not just some word game.

All the very best to you,
David

Lional's response

Thank you for engaging me on this subject. I have spent a lot of time examining the very scriptures you point out within the 4 gospels.

1. Matthew 1:21 points out that Jesus will save people from their sins but does not define how he will go about this.

2. The flesh and blood as described by Jesus in the last supper was used to define his word and spirit as interpretated by Jesus himself in John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profits nothing..... the words that I speak unto you they are spirit, and they are life." Also found in John 15:3 "Now are you clean through the WORD which I have spoken unto you."

So the blood and flesh Jesus is actually referring to in Matthew 26:28 is simply referring to his commandments, Word doctrine as people apply these life changing words of Jesus their sins will be remitted.

In the gospel of Philipe the Apostle Philipe interprets these esoteric words as these: "His flesh is the word, and his blood is the holy spirit. He who have received these has food and he has drink and raiment."

Your carnal interpretation of Jesus shedding his physical flesh and his physical blood is nothing more than an exoteric Roman style interpretation given to you by Paul, not Jesus, and the Apostles. If you take the literal interpretation of the flesh and blood you will miss the real accurate interpretation Jesus means for only his true followers.

John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up in the last day."

So David how much real flesh and blood have you eaten and drunk lately?

Thanks again
Lional

Challenge #2

Well, first in Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." As you can see here, Jesus speaks of his life being given as a ransom which is a clear reference to the sin offerings you find in the Old Testament which blood was shed as a covering for sins, but in Jesus's case his sacrifice took sins away for good. A simple analogy would be that Jesus shed blood was the gold that backed up the 'paper money' of those sacrifices of old as well as a ransom for those who came afterward. As for: Matt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." This very same statement is repeated in Mark 14:24 and in Luke 22:20. I assume you believe the 4 Gospels are accurate and inspired as I do so I will ask you this - since this statement is recorded THREE TIMES doesn't that emphasize bloodshed for remission of sins? Why would God want that part recorded three times in His Word if it didn't mean what it said. That's three witnesses!
John

Lional's response

Dear John

First thank you for taking the time to write me and engaging me on this matter. Your concerns over the below mentioned scriptures are duly noted and I have dwelt alot of time on these scriptures and many more on radio and internet programs. I will address them in proper order.

1. Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Many people in the past have given their lives as a ransom for many. Bar Kokhba who led a revolt against Rome in 132 - 135 A.D. Spartacus in 109 - 71 B.C. Both of these men laid down their lives for their fellow brothers for freedom. Now if Matthew 20:28 stated specifically "......and to give his life a ransom for the remission of sins of many." Then I would have to agree with you on your assumption, but it does not state that. Therefore you are merely reading into a scripture a meaning that simply does not exist.

2. Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new Testament, which is shed for the remission of sins."

To correctly interpret the meaning of the Flesh and blood of Jesus as it is being used in scripture here is to simply refer to the definiton of his flesh and blood that you are to consume according to the other scriptures recorded such as. John 6:64 "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Unfortunately the King James bible does not de-code the meaning of his flesh and blood openly, but the gospel of Philipe does and I quote: "His flesh is the word, and his blood is the holy spirit, he who has received these has food and he has drink and he has raiment."

In John 6:63 Jesus himself is distinguishing the difference between his physical flesh and blood verses his esoteric flesh and blood he is shedding for the remission of other peoplessins. John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing .... the words that I speak unto you they are spirit, and they are life."

Now referring back to the fruit of the vine that Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 26:28 This represents His spirit that you are to consume along with the bread that represents His Word. These are things you are to take inside yourself in rememberance of him. It is these two "the Word and his spirit" when practiced by his true followers. He is shedding these two elements for the world for the remission of sins. It is these two elements that ultimately change a person on the inside and not by depending upon an outward blood shed sacrifice. So these are the true meanings behind the flesh and blood of Jesus.

John 15:3 "Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

Thank you for your concerns
Lional

Challenge #3

Hi there!

What's wrong with this analysis that I gaveyou on Edge AM tonight with Daniel. $10,000 challenge

I can do that challenge... did Jesus lose life for our sins... yes I got quote first question to guess.....

1) what types of life does jesus have?

2-3 types....divinity, soul, and physical...

he cant lose divinity cause that infinite...
he cant lose soul life since HE is NOT sinner
so he can ONLY LOSE his physical life... therefore....

JOHN 10 : 15-18

15: As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17: Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18: No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Mike

Lional's response

Thank you very much Mike for your response on the program and this follow up e-mail.

First off I have no problem with Jesus laying down his life for his sheep, because John 10:15 specifically states just that. "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

However the purpose behind laying down his life was given in John 10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." This scripture is simply confirming that the "taking his life up again - resurrection" was to prove Jesus was the true King rather than the hirling/wolfs/Pharisees that opposed him in verses 12-13. The laying down of his life for the sheep is not to be construed to mean a Physical blood atonement for the remission of sins. He had already shed his word and his spirit for the remission of sins throughout the course of his ministry. It is the Word and his Spirit he defines as his flesh and blood that you are to consume for eternal life. John 6:54 "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life: and I will raise him in the last day."

Remission of sins or salvation comes by way of repentance and by way of the mercy of God not by physical blood atonements (animal or human). Luke 1:77 "..to give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins through the tender mercy of our God. This was the doctrine of John the Baptist as he Baptized Jesus under the doctrine of "The Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins and not by the animal blood shed sacrifices practiced by the Pharisees at the temple.

Thanks again for your response

Lional

Challenge #4

Hi thank you for your response.

However, I beg to differ with you because you have to take all words in a citation into account. You can not IGNORE words in a passage so as to FORCE your thesis.

Let us take this example of a passage: John 3: 14-15

14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

You can interpret this passage in only one way. You can NOT remove the word MUST and say it has no meaning in the passage. The word "MUST" means absolutely necessary. What this means is that Jesus MUST be lifted up on a stick as the serpent was on a stick dead when Moses lifted it up.. So Jesus MUST be LIFTED up DEAD on the CROSS as his act of INFINITE personal love for our salvation.

Perhaps it is your personal distaste for the death of an innocent that is preventing you from seeing this. I do not know why the Father required that. I would have preferred Jesus to die of old age then resurrected. But in reality the passage is clear. HE MUST HAVE been lifted up as the serpent that was dead on a stick for salvation.

The passage says nothing about Jesus dying by falling down, being hit by a stone, dying of old age, cancer, tumorous growth, etcetera....

So what is the meaning of the word MUST??
Thank you.
Mike

Lional's response

I am not questioning that Jesus was lifted up on the cross in John 14. However verse 15 gives everyone in plain view the only logical reason one can obtain eternal life. To believe on him is the same as believing in him. This is how obtains eternal life. It is not by believing in primitive bloodshed sacrifices (animal or human )already practiced by superstitious occults such as Rome and Babylon.

John 12:32 "And I if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

The Resurrection draws all men unto Jesus not the crucifixion. Had Jesus never resurrected himself we would not even be talking about him at all.

Thanks again for your concerns
Lional

Challenge #5

I will be showing that Jesus stated and taught that he was the passover lamb, and that he was to be sacrificed physically as such and that it would be sufficient to pay for the sins of many I will show that he believed the passover lambs blood was shed specifically for the remission of sins. I will show that Jesus believed his physical sacrifice would please God to the degree of forgiving peoples sins.

First its important to understand that the Passover lamb in Jewish tradition was to be a male of the first year (first fruit) without blemish or spot, sacrificed according to God's specific instructions. Obedience to the instructions of the Lord regarding the sacrificial blood of the Passover lamb brought deliverance from death for those within the house (Exodus 12:13 KJV 1611). The lamb died in their place if the blood was not found on their door they too would be killed

The Passover lamb was to be a male "without blemish," (Exodus 12:5 KJV 1611) which is the same description given to Jesus (1 Peter 1:18-19 KJV 1611) but, in keeping with only using the four gospels, i will choose the following way to demonstrate that Jesus was without defect.

In John, it says, “It was preparation day for Passover, and it was about the sixth hour [noon]. And he (Pilate) said to the Jews, "Behold, your king!" (John 19:14 KJV 1611) Jesus was condemned to death at noon. What time were the lambs chosen for slaughter by the high priests? Noon. Pilate declares Jesus unblemished, It’s recorded in Luke, “Pilate then addressed the chief priests and the crowds, "I find no fault in this man." (Luke 23:4 KJV 1611) Pilate declares three times that He found no fault in him. And also in Luke it’s recorded that “Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous [innocent] man." (Luke 23:47 KJV 1611)

One could argue that Jesus himself was not making any claim here but rather one was being made for him, and that's true,so I will now show other places where Jesus validates this idea intentionally or unintentionally advanced by His apostle John, but first, lets continue with more of the symbolism of the passover lamb.

When the lamb was roasted and eaten, none of its bones were to be broken.(Exodus 12:46 KJV 1611) This fact was also prophesied for the Messiah, whose bones were not to be broken.(Psalms 34:20 KJV 1611) It was customary during crucifixion to break the leg bones of the person after a few hours in order to hasten their death. The only way a person could breathe when hanging on a cross was to push up with his legs, which was very exhausting. By breaking the legs, death followed soon by asphyxiation. However, in the case of Jesus, they broke the legs of the other two men, but did not break His, since He was already dead.(John 19:32, 33, 36 KJV 1611) again no specific claim of Jesus yet, just coincidence I guess. that the gospels record these details.

Now lets move in to some specific claims of Jesus which will show that he believed He was the passover lamb and that His sacrificial death in this regard would be sufficient to pay for sins

Good Friday was the day of the Passover celebration and the day that the Passover lamb was to be sacrificed. For the previous 1,200 years, the priest would blow the shophar (ram's horn) at 3:00 p.m. - the moment the lamb was sacrificed, and all the people would pause to contemplate the sacrifice for sins on behalf of the people of Israel.

This fact shows not only that the Passover lamb, despite modern Jewish tradition, was viewed a propitiation for their sins and was linked in the minds of all Jews of the time, including, as we will see next Jesus.

On Good Friday at 3:00,(Matthew 27:46, 50 KJV 1611) (see also Mark 15:34-37, Luke 23:44-46 KJV 1611) when Jesus was being crucified, He said, "It is finished" (John 19:30) - at the moment that the Passover lamb was sacrificed and the shophar was blown from the Temple. The sacrifice of the lamb of God was fulfilled at the hour that the symbolic animal sacrifice usually took place.

Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem five days before the passover lamb was to be killed in the temple as the Passover sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel. Five days before the lamb was to be sacrificed, the lamb was chosen. Therefore, Jesus entered Jerusalem on lamb selection day as the lamb of God.(John 1:29) this actually accounts for two deliberate actions of Jesus where he was asserting that he was the asybolic representation of passover lamb. because we see that Jesus had specifically pre-arranged the purchase of a donkey to enter in to the city on that day (Luke 19:29-34KJV 1611) So he definitely knew what he was doing, In addition this action shows he thought of himself as the passover lamb if we understand another aspect of Jewish tradition. On the 10th of Nisan each families chosen lamb was brought into their home (Exodus 12:3,6 KJV 1611). where it was kept until the 14th. On the Eve of Passover, all leaven was to be searched out and burned (Exodus 12:19 KJV 1611). It was also a symbolic way of leaving the sinful life of Egypt. The Lamb was to be kept among them for what amounted to 3˝ days So too, Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem for 3˝ days before He was killed on the 14th day of Nisan. Jesus was well aware of the timing of his entry into Jerusalem, to say any different wouldnt be perceptive. and besides that there are many more incidents of this type.

For instance when John the baptist told Jesus and everyone else "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world".,(John 1.29 KJV 1611) Jesus obviously agrees with him, John says it again in fact, and this shows not only that Jesus believed himself to be the lamb of god, but that he also believed the lamb of god would please God to the degree of forgiving peoples sins. i.e. "which taketh away the sin of the world" Lev 4:32 KJV 1611Isaiah 53:10: KJV 1611

But the climax of this is in the last supper and in the death of Jesus, where He leaves no doubt to the discerning reader that He believes He is the true and final passover lamb and that, like other Jews of his day, he believed the Passover lamb represented propitiation of their sins.

The Last Supper is accomplished within the context of this Passover meal (cf. Mt 26:17; Lk 22:15; Mk 14:16 KJV 1611). The Paschal (Passover) Feast is structured around four cups of wine. The first cup of wine is poured out for each participant and the head of the house prays the solemn blessing (Hebrew: kiddush); everyone then drinks and partakes of bittern herbs dipped in salt water. The second cup of wine is served after the Passover narrative is read from the twelfth chapter of Exodus and the little Hallel is sung (i.e., Psalms 113 and 114 KJV 1611).

Now the meal proper begins wherein the president blesses the unleavened bread and all partake of it as well as the paschal lamb, bitter herbs, and other dishes. The third cup is then filled including an extra cup that is left for the prophet Elijah, whom they expect as the precursor to the Messiah. Silence is observed for some time, and the door to the room is opened. After this, the fourth cup is filled and the great Hallel is recited (i.e., Psalms 115-118 KJV 1611). The final "cup of consummation" is then partaken of to conclude the Passover Seder meal. With the background of the Passover Seder meal in place, we are able to discern how Jesus fulfills the Old Testament Passover at the Last Supper. We read in Matthew’s Gospel that in the context of this meal (cf. Mt 26:17.19 KJV 1611), "Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body." (Mt 26:26 KJV 1611). In doing so, during the main meal, Jesus provides the unleavened bread, blesses it, and declares it his own body. Jesus provides his own unblemished flesh, This is a really outlandish statement in general, and especially in the context of the passover meal, clearly jesus is telling them He is the unleavended bread, the symbolisim was not lost on a jewish man at a passover feast I assure you.

Now the next three statments of Jesus will leave no doubt about his beliefs about himself, the passover lamb, and the remission of human sins.

"Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, ‘Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Mt 26:27-28 KJV 1611). Then, Jesus declares, "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom" And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives." (Mt 26:29-30KJV 1611). Here we notice that Jesus explicitly declares that he will not partake of the cup of consummation, they recite the great Hallel, and then everyone departs for the Mount of Olives. In refusing the fourth cup, the cup of consummation, Jesus makes a bold deliberate statment and prolongs the Passover Seder meal because it is not yet complete. Matthew then shows that Jesus refused to drink of wine drugged with myrrh, a narcotic, just before his crucifixion on Golgotha (cf. Mt 26:34 KJV 1611). Just at the three o’clock hour, one of the bystanders "ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar [sour wine], and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink." just before he "yielded up the ghost" (Mt 27:48.50 KJV 1611). John records this event in greater detail: "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar[sour wine], and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (Jn 19:28-30 KJV 1611). Jesus finishes and fulfills the Passover as he partakes of the cup of consummation and gives over his spirit to the Father.

So it says Jesus said I thirst in order that "the scripture might be fulfilled" that can really only make sense in this jewish context and it also amounts to a direct claim of jesus to be the passover sacrifice not to mention it was offeres on hyssop which is which is syblolic of the passover lamb.

There is absolutely no doubt that Jesus taught that He was the symbols in the passover and that His physical sacrifice was sufficient for the remission of sins.

References:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/6562/apologetics/passover.html http://www.the4thcup.com/index.php\?r=jesus-is-condemded-to-death http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/6562/apologetics/passover.html

Here are a few more interesting facts about passover if you arr interested:
The festival of unleavened bread began Friday evening (at sunset). As part of the festival, the Jews would take some of the grain - the "first fruits" of their harvest - to the Temple to offer as a sacrifice. In so doing, they were offering God all they had and trusting Him to proved the rest of the harvest. It was at this point that Jesus was buried - planted in the ground - as He said right before His death.22 Paul refers to Jesus as the first fruits of those raised from the dead in 1 Corinthians.23 As such, Jesus represents the fulfillment of God's promise to provide the rest of the harvest - resurrection of those who follow the Messiah.

matzah - striped and piercedChristian symbolism in the Passover occurs early in the Seder (the Passover dinner). Three matzahs are put together (representing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The middle matzah is broken,24 wrapped in a white cloth, and hidden, representing the death and burial of Jesus.25 The matzah itself is designed to represent Jesus, since it is striped and pierced, which was prophesized by Isaiah, 26 David,27 and Zechariah.28 Following the Seder meal, the "buried" matzah is "resurrected," which was foretold in the prophecies of David.29

Lional's response

Hi Chris

Thanks for taking the time to write and meet the challenge. It is only through debate and re-examination will the truth come out. I believe this whole debate comes down to a proper understanding of the Blood and flesh of Jesus as it is reference by him in Matthew 26:28 " This is my blood of the new testament which is shed for the remission of sins".

Jesus defines his blood and flesh as if it needs to be consumed by you and others as illustrated in John 6: 54 " Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up in the last day."

Unfortunately the decoding of the flesh and blood is never completely revealed in the four gospels, since it was edited by the Romans in 325 A.D. However The gospel of Phillip does define the flesh and blood like this: " His flesh is the Word, and his blood is the Holy spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and raiment." This of course fits the statements made by Jesus in John 15:3 " Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you."

Which leads us to the ultimate question. Can a person be save or forgiven by the heavenly Father without a physical bloodshed sacrifice performed by Jesus? Jesu makes no reference of the crucifixion as an atonement for anyones sins but he does in reference to his Word. If one follows the Words of Jesus they are consuming his flesh and blood thereby their sins are forgiven. For example: Matthew 6:14 " For if you forgive men their trespasses you heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you forgive not men their trespasses neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Matthew5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy."

In reference to John 1:29 "Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." Notice the singular word "sin" not sins of the world. The father of John the Baptist stated in Luke 1:76 that John was the greatest of all prophet that would give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins through the tender mercy of their God. So there you have it from Jesus and John John the Baptist neither beived in a physical bloodshed sacrifice for the remission of sins. Your thesis of using old testament scriptures to make a physical bloodshed doctrine correct is all wrong especially when Babylon also sacrifices a lamb in the month of Nissan for the remission of their sins. they practiced this ritual clear back in 3100 B.C.

Thanks again
Lional